NH #554: Nuclear Ukraine: 15 Reactors + Chernobyl + Russia/US Saber Rattling = Yikes! - Karl Grossman, Bruce Gagnon​​​​‌‍​‍​‍‌‍‌​‍‌‍‍‌‌‍‌‌‍‍‌‌‍‍​‍​‍​‍‍​‍​‍‌​‌‍​‌‌‍‍‌‍‍‌‌‌​‌‍‌​‍‍‌‍‍‌‌‍​‍​‍​‍​​‍​‍‌‍‍​‌​‍‌‍‌‌‌‍‌‍​‍​‍​‍‍​‍​‍‌‍‍​‌‌​‌‌​‌​​‌​​‍‍​‍​‍‌​‌‌​‌‌‌‌‍‌​‌‍‍‌‌‍​‍‍‌‍‍‌‌‌‌‍​‌‍​‌‍‌‌‌‍​‌‌​‍‌‍‍​‌‍‌‌​‌​‌‍‌‌‌‍​‌‌‌​​‍‍‌‍​‌‍‌‍‌​‍‌‍‍‌‌‍‍‌‌​‌‍‌‌‌‍‍‌‌​​‍‌‍‌‌‌‍‌​‌‍‍‌‌‌​​‍‌‍‌‌‍‌‍‌​‌‍‌‌​‌‌​​‌​‍‌‍‌‌‌​‌‍‌‌‌‍‍‌‌​‌‍​‌‌‌​‌‍‍‌‌‍‌‍‍​‍‌‍‍‌‌‍‌​​‌‌‍‌‌‌​​‌‍‍‌‌​‌‍‌‍‌​‌‍‌‌​‍‌​‍‌​​​​‍‌​​​‍‌‌​‌‍‌‌​​‌‍‌‌​‌‌‍‌‌‌​​‌‍‍‌‌​‌‍‌‍‌​‌‍‌‌​‍‌​​‌‍​‌‌‌​‌‍‍​​‌‌‌​‌‍‍‌‌‌​‌‍​‌‍‌‌​‌‍​‍‌‍​‌‌​‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‌‌​‍‌‍​​‌‌‍‍​‌‌​‌‌​‌​​‌​​‍‌‌​​‌​​‌​‍‌‌​​‍‌​‌‍​‍‌‌​​‍‌​‌‍‌​‌‌​‌‌‌‌‍‌​‌‍‍‌‌‍​‍‍‌‍‍‌‌‌‌‍​‌‍​‌‍‌‌‌‍​‌‌​‍‌‍‍​‌‍‌‌​‌​‌‍‌‌‌‍​‌‌‌​​‍‍‌‍​‌‍‌‍‌​‍‌‍‌‍‍‌‌‍‌​​‌‌‍‌‌‌​​‌‍‍‌‌​‌‍‌‍‌​‌‍‌‌​‍‌​‍‌​​​​‍‌​​​‍‌‍‌‌​‌‍‌‌​​‌‍‌‌​‌‌‍‌‌‌​​‌‍‍‌‌​‌‍‌‍‌​‌‍‌‌​‍‌‍‌​​‌‍​‌‌‌​‌‍‍​​‌‌‌​‌‍‍‌‌‌​‌‍​‌‍‌‌​‍‌‍‌​​‌‍‌‌‌​‍‌​‌​​‌‍‌‌‌‍​‌‌​‌‍‍‌‌‌‍‌‍‌‌​‌‌​​‌‌‌‌‍​‍‌‍​‌‍‍‌‌​‌‍‍​‌‍‌‌‌‍‌​​‍​‍‌‌

Libbe HaLevy

00:00:01

Nuclear Ukraine while Russia and the United States face off at the Ukrainian border over what looks like an impending invasion by Russia. But then again with Russia and the U S one never knows exactly what’s going on behind the scenes. One might be tempted to think, well, at least Ukraine doesn’t have nuclear weapons, but wait, when one considers that there are 15 nuclear power reactors in Ukraine, including six at a facility, only 120 miles away from where Russia is a missing its forces that might lead you to think. Oops. And then when a genuine expert on nuclear matters tells you

Carl Grossman

00:00:47

It’s a multiplication of nuclear power plants has been given a little public consideration in terms of their vulnerability in times of war. And that’s what we have a country crowded with nuclear power plants. If there’s war, that’s going to be a big war in the Ukraine, probably the biggest war in Europe, since world war two, and those 15 nuclear power plants in Ukraine are going to be one way or the other involved in the conflict of the threat is real. Even a desultory Russian incursion into Eastern Ukraine is likely to expose reactors and the uncertainty of a ground combat environment. The world has little experience with react is in a war zone.

Libbe HaLevy

00:01:39

Well, when Carl Grossman raises a big red flag about nuclear reactors on the ground in a possible war zone in Ukraine, and then Bruce Gagnin fills us in on the connection between war and Ukraine and climate change. You can see that we’re a lot closer than ever to that dangerous seat that we all share

Announcer

00:02:04

To clear hot seat. What are those people thinking? Nuclear hot seat. What have those boys been breaking clear? Hot? See the Ms. Sinking our time to act is shrinking, but the visceral nuclear Hotsy, it’s the bomb.

Libbe HaLevy

00:02:35

Welcome to nuclear hot seat, the weekly international news magazine, keeping you up to date on all things nuclear from a different perspective. My name is Leiby Halevi, I’m the producer and host as well as a survivor of the nuclear accident at three mile island from just one mile away. So I know what can happen when those nuclear so-called experts get it wrong. This week, a truly different perspective on the growing tensions in Ukraine, where Russia has been amassing troops on their border, the United States and NATO had been rattling sabers back at them. And there are 15 operating nuclear reactors on the ground. Plus the highly radioactive remains of Chernobyl. Will we have a war and live thereafter by the law of unintended nuclear consequences? If so, how bad might those be defined out? We have two experts. Award-winning environmental journalists, Carl Grossman, and Bruce Gagnin, who is coordinator of the global network against weapons and nuclear power in space.

Libbe HaLevy

00:03:46

These two men will help us decipher the nature of the dangers as well as background issues that led up to this situation and the surprising role that climate change plays as the ultimate motivation behind this military buildup, we will also have nuclear news from around the world, numb nuts of the week for outstanding nuclear bone headedness, and more honest nuclear information than showed up on Wordle even before the New York times bought it. All of it coming up in just a few moments today is Tuesday, February 1st, 2022. And here is this week’s nuclear news from a different perspective in New Mexico, triad national security, the nuclear weapons contractor at Los Alamos national laboratory. Once the department of energy to accept the risk of bringing large shipments of plutonium, 2 38 in uncertified containers for repackaging at the plutonium facility, despite the fact that this would exceed the established quantity limits for the plutonium facility and the glove boxes that would be used in packaging operations, it would also increase the potential risk to the public from a radiological release, from an earthquake fire either or both.

Libbe HaLevy

00:05:05

And the radiation exposure would be three to 15 times the DOE guidance limit of 25 REMS Dan Hirsch, a retired director of environment and nuclear policy programs at the university of California. Santa Cruz said just 25. REMS is 12,500 x-rays and a very, very high cancer risk that the request is so far over. It is astonishing in Massachusetts. We will link to an article by Christine and the Provincetown independent on exactly why Cape Cod bay is not a good place for Holtec, which is decommissioning the Pilgrim nuclear power station to dump 1 million gallons of radioactive waste. The former heads of nuclear power regulation in the U S Germany and France, along with former secretary to the UK government radiation protection committee have issued a joint statement that says in part nuclear is just not part of any feasible strategy that could counter climate change. Dr.

Libbe HaLevy

00:06:06

Gregory former chair of the us nuclear regulatory commission, Dr. Paul Dorfman from the UK, Dr. Bernard lapel Lynch, former director general of the French agency for energy management and professor Wolfgang. Roennenberg former head of the reactor safety, radiation protection and nuclear waste division of the federal environmental ministry in Germany said, quote, the central message repeated again and again, is that a new generation of nuclear will be clean, safe, smart, and cheap is fiction. The reality is nuclear is neither clean, safe, or smart, but a very complex technology with the potential to cause significant harm nuclear isn’t cheap, but extremely costly. Perhaps most importantly, nuclear is just not part of any feasible strategy that could counter climate change. We’ll link to that source material as well. In Japan, as the European commission has decided to include nuclear power in the European green taxonomy, meaning the classification that allows for funding as part of clean, renewable energy to fight climate change, put all of that in quotes, five former prime ministers of Japan had taken a public stand against that inclusion now to Aecon who was prime minister when Fukushima happened and junichiro Koizumi the longest serving prime minister in Japan’s history cited the exorbitant cost to Japan after Fukushima and spoke in favor of wind power and solar power.

Libbe HaLevy

00:07:41

Many of the plans, the TEPCO Tokyo electric power company has to release the steel radiologically contaminated water stored at Fukushima Daiichi into the Pacific ocean. Starting in spring of 2023 has received more setbacks opposition to the plan remains fierce among local residents. The fishing industry and overseas governments pits are being dug that will temporarily hold radioactive water right before the release. But other preparatory work has already been stalled, including creation of an undersea tunnel through which the, through which this radioactive water is intended to be released into the Pacific about one kilometer from the plant now comes word that Fukushima radiation may Japanese for trees go haywire after that nuclear disaster, which began on March 11th, 2011, and a study published on January 15 in the journal plants, scientists described changes to the structure of plants and trees in areas close to where the triple meltdown occurred. The number of strange mutations corresponded with the amount of radiation the trees were hit with. And the authors noted that the abnormalities they uncovered were like those found on Scott’s pine trees and the Chernobyl exclusion zone. This also brings to mind Mary Osborne’s collected of mutated plants around three mile island after that nuclear accident, which are currently in the Smithsonian institution. And now

Libbe HaLevy

00:09:18

I think a number of fungi species are known to inhabit the extremely radioactive environment than emerge out of the Chernobyl nuclear accident. In 1986, scientists have documented around 200 species living in the ruins of the former nuclear power plant. And now we learn that a few actually eat the radiation itself. So what conclusion did the scientists come to about the possible use of such radiation eating fungi? Why use them as a source of food for astronauts during long space flights or when we colonize other planets, excuse me, has anybody thought to maybe unleash these on radioactive zones so that they can start eating up radiation here on earth and neutralizing it? Could it be that mother nature has come up with a solution to the nuclear waste problem? Only we are too stupid short-sighted or who knows what to see that it’s there. How about we get a lot of these fungi and I don’t know, dust them over the Santa Susana field lab in Southern California or the Westlake landfill in north St. Louis or the Hanford site in Washington state or any one of the other radioactive zones that we have around this country, heck around the world. Let’s try it out, guys. You know, a practical, low cost non-toxic means of neutralizing nuclear waste. Could we just put some rain power behind it? Well, I guess not from these people and that’s why whoever you scientists are, who are saying, Ooh, let’s send all of this radiation eating fungi into outer space. You are shortsighted and your, this week’s

Libbe HaLevy

01:11:11

We’ll have this week’s featured interview in just a moment, but first nuclear threats and radiation disasters, there are too many to count, but as a start, the Trinity tests in New Mexico, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl Fukushima, three mile island, church rock uranium, mining spill in New Mexico, overflowing radioactive spent fuel pools at every nuclear energy reactor on the planet. Plutonium contaminated, radioactive waste dumps. And as you’ll soon here, 15 Ukrainian nuclear reactors and what may soon be a war zone. And there’s always more, every week, there are new stories of how nuclear perpetuates itself, despite the known risks and historic accidents, as well as lesser told tales of how brave activists around the world are fighting back and how any one of us can take action to stop the nuclear madness. And that’s why nuclear hotseat is here to help you understand what’s going on in the nuclear world and what you can do about it.

Libbe HaLevy

01:12:21

We get into nuclear stories with facts, continuity and context, as well as a healthy dose of sarcasm and provide a much deeper and nuanced exploration of the issues than you would ever expect to find on mainstream media. We bring you fresh information and unrelenting perspective and even one possible humor all with an eye to giving you the power to fight back, want to help us keep doing our thing. Then the time is right now to support us, just go to nuclear, hot seat.com and click on the big red donate button to help us with a donation of any size. You can also set up a monthly donation of as little as $5. That’s actually the juice that keeps us going. So if you value nuclear hot seat of what help us continue to keep you informed, please do what you can know and know that however much you can help you have my gratitude that you listen and that you care.

Libbe HaLevy

01:13:23

Now here’s this week’s featured interview. It’s bad enough to know that Russian troops are massing on the border of Ukraine. The U S and NATO are pushing back and the U S and Russia, two nuclear armed states are ramping up both the rhetoric and the war footing. What is going on and how much of a nuclear threat are we as a planet facing? That’s what I set out to discover for this week show and came out of it with more complex, nuanced, and unexpected information than I ever could have anticipated. That’s what happens when you ask genuine experts, what they see happening, and then allow them to have their say. I spoke with Carl Grossman. He is an award-winning environmental investigative reporter, author of six books and a journalism professor at the state university of New York college at old Westbury. Carl also hosts the syndicated television program in viral close-up with Carl Grossman and has been covering nuclear issues for more than 50 years.

Libbe HaLevy

01:14:29

Bruce Gagnin is co-founder and coordinator of the global network against weapons and nuclear power in space. He follows international issues, the threat of war and the dangers posed by nuclear, anything in space together. These two men have worked tirelessly to tease out and expose the truths of nuclear dangers. Then share them with anyone willing to listen. That’s why they’re here. And that’s why they’re talking to you at the start of each nuclear hot seat. I always state that we provide nuclear news from a different perspective, and that is what we truly have here. A different perspective on Ukraine. What has led up to it? What is ultimately behind it? And hint, can you spell climate change? I spoke with Carl Grossman and Bruce Gagnin on Saturday, January 29th, 2020 to Carol Grossman and Bruce Gagnin welcome to nuclear hot seat.

Carl Grossman

01:15:29

Great to be with you, a pleasure to be with you Libby, and to be with Bruce.

Libbe HaLevy

01:15:35

Let’s do a little bit of background first on the nuclear aspect of Ukraine. How extensive is their use of nuclear reactors to get their energy?

Carl Grossman

01:15:46

There are 15 nuclear power plants in Ukraine. Indeed. I’m looking here at an article, aerospace and defense. A Ukraine invasion could go nuclear. 50 reactors would be in war zone. That’s the headline here. Here’s a piece from the New York times just a week ago, talks about the Ukraine being one of the most radioactive places on earth. Indeed, the Ukraine is where the, this should noble nuclear plant was. Now it’s in the middle of an exclusion zone, highly radioactive area. And here are the New York times and its first paragraph notes as that, if there is an invasion by Russia, into Ukraine, the shortest path lies going through this Chernobyl exclusion zone. So we’re talking about, well as aerospace and defense says a war that could, because of all these nuclear power plants, if there’s an exchange of fire and nuclear power plants are hit, you’re talking about huge destruction, which could impact not only the Ukraine, but like Chernobyl did all of Europe and beyond

Libbe HaLevy

01:17:10

Presumably because these reactors were all built during the Russian era of being dominant over the Ukraine. These are Russian design built and certainly the training behind it has to come from Russia. To what extent do we know that they are still involved in the operation of these reactors? And could they just at minimum step away from any of their support, should anything go wrong with them?

Carl Grossman

01:17:38

Frankly, I wouldn’t downgrade the Soviet design reactors and the Ukraine allowed me to Shanna Cinco who I interviewed years ago. And he was in charge of the cleanup at the Chernobyl nuclear plant site. And he died of cancer as a result of being there. I mean that area is hot, still hot with radioactivity. And what Dr. Chino Cinco told me is that though the west would like to say the Soviet reactors are of poor design and so forth. He was to the west. He’s been to, or he was to Western reactors. They’re all about the same. So they all are very susceptible for catastrophic accidents. And whether it’s the, of the GE reactors and Fukushima was the Soviet design reactors. And in the Ukraine, nuclear power is dirty, dangerous, also expensive, but enormously, enormously dangerous because of the high likelihood of accidents and not slow ones, either catastrophic accidents.

Libbe HaLevy

01:18:47

Russia has been building up its troops at the Ukrainian border. And there seems to be every indication that they intend to invade the country. We just got news this morning that blood supplies have been moved to the front in Russia. Is there a known reason for this build up? Can we speculate as to what Russia’s intention is? Bruce? Why don’t you take this one? If you would, please.

Bruce Gagnin

01:19:15

Actually, I don’t agree with your premise there. I don’t think Russia has the slightest interest in invading Ukraine. We hear that in Western media, but we should remember 2003. George W. Bush was shock and awe were rack where the corporate media lied to us, lied us into a war, NPR, New York times, CNN, MSNBC, Washington post all the way down the line. And they’re doing the same thing. Again, we’ve got to be a little more circumspect about what we hear in the corporate dominated media. Russia has said this, that since the 2014 Obama administration orchestrated coup d’etat in Ukraine, where they overthrew an elected president, this was directed by Joe Biden. Then vice-president Hillary Clinton, secretary of state and Victoria Nuland, assistant secretary of state. They installed a right wing president. And the first thing they did was pass a law saying that the speaking of Russian in Ukraine would be illegal.

Bruce Gagnin

02:20:30

Well, half the country speaks Russian. And on the Eastern side of Ukraine, what they call the Donbass region, the cities of Lugansk and Don asks right on the Russian border. They began holding peaceful marches and referendum signatures saying we want a federated Ukraine. These people are now called Russian separatists. I call them self-defense forces because as they were doing this, they were attacked by Nazis Nazis from Western Ukraine who since the days of Hitler’s invasion, when Hitler swept through Ukraine, as he came into Western Ukraine, there’s a long tradition of Nazi worship. There, a guy by the name of Stephan Bandera. Who’s now been proclaimed by this new government as a national hero. He organized a group of fascist followers and they helped the Nazis kill tens of thousands of Jews poles and ethnic Russians. And so today these Nazis are being trained and outfitted and directed by the United States, the United Kingdom and NATO.

Bruce Gagnin

02:21:51

And as soon as these peaceful marches and signature campaigns began in Eastern Ukraine on the Russian border by ethnic Russians, but Ukrainian citizens, these Nazis were sent there to attack them. And they’ve been doing it ever since 2014, more than 10,000 people have died. They bombed and shelled hospitals, schools, churches, daycare centers, train stations, rail stations, apartment blocks, rural homes of poor people. These are mostly coal miners in the region. And as they began attacking the people in the Donbass, the coal miners came out of the mines and grabbed whatever they could to defend their families. Again, this is why I call them self defense forces to defend their families against these attacks by the Nazis and slowly, they began to accumulate some of the weapons from some of these Nazis as they chased them away or whatever. And then Russia also began to arm them.

Bruce Gagnin

02:22:55

Russia never invaded, but they did support these self-defense forces. Well, today they have, what’s called a line of contact between the Donbass. But again, the cities of Lugansk and don’t ask, and just on the other side, literally a few hundred yards away, or 150,000 Ukrainian soldiers who are now being armed in a steroidal campaign by the U S and NATO. And so the reason why Russia has moved its forces near the border of Ukraine is not because they want to attack it is because if there’s a full scale attack, something that Ukraine has been threatening for years of this Donbass region, then Russia says we will defend them. That’s what’s really going on. And few people know about it because it’s never reported. As I said before, and the corporate media, again, Russia has been saying this us created a failed state when it did the Q data in 2014, I AMF loans came in and in order to get those loans, they had to sell off everything in the country, including their topsoil. Remember Ukraine was the bread basket of Europe, and Monsanto has now bought the top soil of Ukraine. So it’s a failed state. Russia said, why do we want to occupy and try to take on the responsibility of this huge country? We already have a big country. It makes no sense. Let the U S and NATO deal with Ukraine, let them fix Ukraine because they’ve ruined it. That’s Russia’s official position.

Libbe HaLevy

02:24:38

Thanks for that, Bruce, because that’s certainly a perspective that I have not come across. Now, the build up of Russian troops is only 120 miles from the Zappa regia nuclear power plant, which consists of six reactors. If there is a conflict that goes hot between the United States, NATO, Ukraine, whoever the forces are on one side and Russia on the other, if that’s not too simplistic, what is the possible impact it could have on zippers? Yeah.

Carl Grossman

02:25:13

Ambassador to Japan surgical said if war, she just said a few days ago, if war is going to happen, it’ll be the first ever in the history of mankind war against the country, which has on its territory, 15 nuclear reactors. Again, it’s part of the folly, frankly, of nuclear power ignoring the impacts of war. Indeed Gordon Edwards, who was a noted nuclear scientist. He was on a, it was an impressive presentation. He came just a few days ago, all about nuclear power. And we use the Canadian Dr. Edwards. And one of the points he made was that if nuclear power had been developed before world war two, and you consider all the bombing done in world war two, Europe would be rented uninhabitable because inevitably some of those nuclear power, I mean, there’s over a hundred nuclear power plants now just alone in the European union.

Carl Grossman

02:26:20

And then you add the nuclear plants in countries that aren’t part of the EU. You can save. You can imagine what it would have been if nuclear power came along in the 1930s, so that we could go back to Ukraine, 15, 15 nuclear power plants. If there’s an invasion, if there’s a war, the ambassador spoke of this too, it’s going to be a catastrophic event in terms of the consequences, because of all these nuclear power plants. Bruce Kagen has a blog, which I always read. And this is the one it’s actually from this morning, 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine is the heading war. Very bad idea. And it’s not only a very bad idea. It’s a very bad, horribly bad event in human history because we have all these, these nuclear plants in this country. And I think they would inevitably get involved in a shooting war in the Ukraine. The disaster would be unthinkable. The radioactive disaster would be unthinkable.

Libbe HaLevy

02:27:31

Certainly it wouldn’t take an atom bomb. We wouldn’t have the fireball, but in terms of radiation releases, conventional weapons aimed at spent fuel pools or possibly containment vessels, but even just the spent fuel pools, you could have, we could have an enormous release of radiation. The question being, how likely is it that Russia has planned for this eventuality or this possibility by having teams of mobilized trained reactor operators and reactor crisis management teams to take over any power plants that they might quote unquote, liberate

Carl Grossman

02:28:09

Nuclear power plants have containments, but they don’t contain very much. And did here’s a piece I wrote 2016, six years ago, nuclear power plants. This is the headline. It was on counterpunch. If people would like to read it it’s as relevant now, as it was then nuclear power plants, the headline are pre deployed weapons of mass destruction. And I note in this piece about how this is the nine 11 commission that we had writes about, have those hijackers originally considered an attack by hijack planes on quote unidentified nuclear power plants, Indian point nuclear power plants, thankfully not operating any longer, but 26 miles from New York city was conceived to be the nuclear power plants. The nine 11 hijackers were thinking of hitting an excellent, excellent, brilliant authority on nuclear power plants. And the consequences of their them being struck is back to Bennett Randburg. He wrote a book, it’s a landmark book.

Carl Grossman

02:29:20

People should look at it because again, this whole thing, nukes and war and the combination. I mean the nuclear ministry doesn’t want to talk about this at all. He wrote a book 1980 nuclear power plants as weapons for the enemy, an unrecognized military peril. He writes in the book, a multiplication of nuclear power plants has been given a little public consideration in terms of their vulnerability in times of war. And that’s what we have with the Ukraine, a country crowded with nuclear power plants. It’s a product of war. It would be accidentally in a kind of, if there’s war, there’s going to be a big war in the Ukraine, probably the biggest war in Europe, since world war two. And those 15 nuclear power plants in Ukraine are going to be one way or the other involved in the conflict.

Bruce Gagnin

03:30:19

Let’s look at it from the Russian perspective for a moment. Russia is of course the neighbor of Ukraine, half the country. Basically I think the majority of the population is Russian ethnic. It would not be in Russia’s interest in any way to take out a nuclear power plant. Number one, because it would, the radiation would fall into Russia as well. And number two, they’d be killing their own brothers and sisters by exposing the Ukrainian Russian ethnics to the fallout. So I just don’t see, I think this is just one more reason why Russia is trying to avoid this whole thing, but I think I’d like to go in for a moment to what I believe is driving all of this insanity today, because mostly we’re just talking about this immediate situation, but I want to talk about what’s really behind it. And it’s climate change.

Bruce Gagnin

03:31:20

As you look at the Arctic sea, which country has the largest border with the Arctic. And the answer of course is Russia, massive border. The Rand corporation in California that was famous for publishing the Vietnam era, the Pentagon papers that was smuggled copied and smuggled to the media, to the public by Daniel Ellsberg during the Vietnam war, the Rand corporation recently has published a study called unbalancing Russia. And they basically call for the breakup of Russia and to smaller countries because the fossil fuel extraction corporations want to get their hands on that Arctic sea. They don’t want Russia to have access to all of that. And so the only way to do it is similar to what the U S and NATO did to Yugoslavia during the Clinton administration, they broke it up, they balkanized it. And so that’s the plan for Russia. And so what the Rand corporation says is essentially that we have to create chaos along the borders of Russia and by expanding NATO and creating situations of a failed state and Ukraine.

Bruce Gagnin

03:32:47

What they’re doing is forcing Russia to spend a lot more money, a massive amount of money, protecting their borders, preparing against any kind of attack that would be ultimately directed by the U S and NATO. And so this is what the Rand corporation prescribes bleed Russia, so that it begins to have increasing internal problems. The population is not being cared for at the level they need. They begin to agitate and it becomes easier to destabilize Russia and do regime change, get rid of Putin and begin to Balkanize the country, break it up so that the oil corporations can drill baby drill. Of course, Russia understands, this is what’s going on. And so we see this conflict going back and forth, but nobody really talks about what the real reasons for this conflict is. So, anyway, I think this is really important. I urge people to go to my blog, which is called organizing notes and O T E S and w just search my name and organizing notes. You should find it. And I daily report on all these kinds of things that are happening today.

Carl Grossman

03:34:06

And of course we will link to it on the website, Carl and, and I would want to stress. I’m not saying that the Russians would hit the reactors in the Ukraine on purpose, because indeed it, it would be suicide. So for, I mean, Russia is right there. The fallout cloud would affect Russia, but it would be a part of the impacts of war, the kind of war. I think that possibly could occur a secondary impact being in a war zone, having 15 nuclear power plants in a relatively small country, where there would be hundreds of thousands of troops, both sides engaged with each other in all kinds of violence and bombing. And, and again, with these nuclear plants in the middle of it all, it’s no place for a war. Not that there’s any good place for a war, but not with, with all these nuclear power plants

Bruce Gagnin

03:35:04

Today. I got a, a email from a friend of mine in Russia, Dr. Vladimir Cozen, he’s a member of the Russian academy of military sciences. He’s come to two of our global network annual meetings. We hold them in different countries where there are space issues. He’s become a very good friend. If you don’t mind, I’d like to take a minute and tell you what he’s told me. He is concerned. He thinks there very well might be a war that will be initiated by Ukraine under from the United States and NATO. He says, the following there are now 150,000 Ukrainian troops near the Donbass. Some days ago, it was 120,000. The Donbass has only 35,000 troops that cannot attack Ukraine. The general staff of the Ukrainian armed forces has finalized a master plan to attack Donbass. The USA has delivered 250 tons of military equipment and ammunition to the Ukrainian government.

Bruce Gagnin

03:36:09

45 more us transport aircraft are to arrive with more of this military equipment and ammunition. Civil hospitals in Ukraine had been converted into military ones. Any regular annual vacations for the Ukrainian GIS had been canceled. The bunker defeat munitions have arrived to the Ukrainian government attacking forces. The Donbass self-defense forces do not have them. Basically, you know, both sides now of this contact line have created these kind of underground bunkers. It looks a lot like the world war one, trench warfare kind of situation. And so these bunker busting munitions, he’s talking about the U S and NATO have supplied them to the Ukrainian government. Several public protests against war versus Donbass have recently been staged near the Ukrainian parliament because remember, half the country is Russian ethnic. They don’t want war. The public doesn’t want war. The current president Zelensky was elected because he was opposing any war.

Bruce Gagnin

03:37:20

That’s why he won the election. But as soon as he got in there, the U S and NATO’s turned them around and he’s their agent. And finally, he says that Kiev, the capital, the government of Ukraine continues to violate a ceasefire that was negotiated several years back. It’s called the Minsk agreements where Ukraine signed an agreement with the Donbass. And the agreement says that you will allow for a federated Ukraine again, not Russia taken over the, the Donbass region Lugansk and Dawn ass, but Ukraine government would agree to have a federated Ukraine where the local people there would be allowed to decide what language they want to speak. They’d get to elect their own local politicians rather than have them appointed by the current super right-wing government in Kiev, give them some local autonomy. That’s all they’ve ever asked for. He says the Kiev government continues to violate the ceasefire that there have been 173 ceasefire violations recently.

Bruce Gagnin

03:38:32

And it’s getting worse by the so a Bladimir Cozen is not as optimistic, but I will say this, that just in the past week, there seems to be some of the NATO members that are getting cold feet Croatia. The president of Croatia has said, we will not send any of our soldiers into a natal war. They’re a NATO member. Croatia is Romania, apparently has said the same thing. France. Also a NATO member is working behind the scenes, trying to get the United States and NATO to back off. And Germany is also doing the same thing we’re told, and they didn’t allow the United Kingdom to fly a weapon. Shipment. UK has been flying a lot of weapons to the Ukrainian government. And Germany said you can’t fly over our territory. So there is some consciousness growing in Europe that, Hey, this wouldn’t be good for us, especially with 15 nuclear reactors that could potentially, as Carl said, even if they weren’t intentionally blown up, they could become, they could be hit during and during a war.

Libbe HaLevy

03:39:45

They can certainly be compromised in some way, if the fighting takes place around them, if somebody goes off target, if they’re dropping a bomb, or if they’re launching munitions at it in all of this action that is going on behind the scenes, the diplomacy, the pressure whatever’s going on. What if any focus, has there been the fact of these 15 reactors and anything that could be done to protect them or mitigate damages, or do we just have to sit with them, but naked out there and vulnerable to anything that might happen in the course of a war?

Bruce Gagnin

04:40:24

My opinion, Carl might be able to add more to this, but I didn’t know anything about these 15 nuclear reactors until about three days ago. I put it on my blog today. I shared it widely on my email and on Facebook shared the article that I posted on my blog. I’m trying to alert people to it, but I don’t. I’ve heard no discussion prior to the last couple of days.

Carl Grossman

04:40:49

The piece that I read before a Ukraine invasion could go nuclear 15 reactors would be in a war zone. And this is an aerospace and defense, which is, it was the trade journal. It goes back to, well, not too far, a December 28th. So it goes back to the end of last year. But I mean, here is spelled out. The threat is real. Ukraine is heavily dependent upon nuclear power. Even a desultory Russian incursion into Eastern Ukraine is likely to expose reactors and the uncertainty of a ground combat environment. The world has little experience with react is in a war zone as to your earlier question, the consequences, the impacts of it wouldn’t take much a handheld shoulder mounted rocket launch. It compares the containment of a nuclear power plant nuclear power plants, nuclear reactors contain a thousand times more than Rio activity. Then the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

Carl Grossman

04:41:59

Again, I would think it would be inevitable that they would be impacted you can’t safeguard them. They’re in the middle of a war zone that radiation, that radioactivity would come streaming out. If a reactor is hit while it’s an actual operation, which is highly likely these nuclear power plants are an operation you can have in the Ukraine, Russia, noble accident, a huge explosion. You can have easily a plume of radioactivity moving out of those nuclear power plants. The fallout has to be gauged in terms of wins, terms of rain and so forth. But again, th th this is a nuclear hotspot and war is quite possible. And let me just, just add here that, oh, for 20 years as the United nations, I was on a commission for disarmament education, conflict resolution, and peace. Our focus, our mission was to look for ways to avoid war, particularly nuclear war in this situation.

Carl Grossman

04:43:03

I’m kind of, maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that the United States has taken a very, very hard line position beyond what Bruce is talking about. What Russia is very concerned about is the placement of missiles and other weaponry, other armaments on their borders. I mean, it’s been compared with what will United States do if suddenly there were missiles and weaponry along the border with Mexico, along the border with Canada, this is too close to comfort. But from my reading of the Ukrainian situation, the U S doesn’t want to negotiate on what seems to me to be a, be a central issue. Diplomacy is necessary here. Avoiding war is necessary with this commission that I was on for for many years, we learned about countries take Costa Rica, which disbanded as military in 1948. Although people down in the central American region said, you can’t do that in this tough neighborhood.

Carl Grossman

04:44:06

We learned about successful disarmament. We had programs where we put warring parties, so to speak, having retreats, getting to know each other, indeed putting together Israelis and Palestinians for two weeks to get to know each other and not to demonize each other any longer, but person to person. It’s amazing what that can do. There’s all kinds of conflict measures and methods. I mean, it’s a whole science these days, and in my judgment, we can have peace, but you got to work on it and you have to have a will to have peace. And, and I’m afraid that there are forces in this world, which relish warfare, and there’s an alternative. And the alternative is peace.

Bruce Gagnin

04:44:53

That may come in further on one thing, Carl was just saying he was talking about us missiles nearby Russia. In fact, they’re called Aegis ashore platforms. The ages Navy Aegis destroyer that is made here in bath Maine, where I live has had the best testing of its so-called missile defense system. Missile defense basically is the shield to be used after the U S launches a first strike attack, the way it works, us attacks, and then Russia or China tries to fire retaliatory strike of their remaining capability. And in Zen that these so-called missile defense systems are used to pick off that retaliatory strike, giving the U S a quote unquote, successful first strike. This is something that at the space command, they war game annually on computers against Russia and China. So anyway, this Aegis Navy platform has had the best testing results of any other so-called missile defense system. And so they’ve created it. They’ve now taken the technology off the ship and putting it on the land and they put it in Romania and Poland. So in Romania and Poland now, so near the Russian border, the U S has this capability to be able to deliver a first strike attack, and then have the shield pick off any Russian retaliatory strike.

Libbe HaLevy

04:46:22

And when you say first strike, are you talking about a nuclear

Bruce Gagnin

04:46:25

First strike? Yeah, I am it’s at these platforms. They not only can fire the interceptors for the shield, but they also can fire the Tomahawk nuclear capable cruise missile, which flies below radar detection. And this is what Russia talks about all the time is you’ve put these offensive Tomahawk, cruise missiles, nuclear capable, very near our border. They would have the capability of taking out Russia’s nuclear, underground systems or command control centers, all those kind of military assets, if you will. And basically it’s a Cuban missile crisis in reverse, but again, unlike the Cuban missile crisis, the American media doesn’t ever talk anything about it. You never hear anything in the American media and never see anything in the papers about the Russian perspective on these NATO, us NATO, military deployments in circling them. This is what’s driving them crazy in Russia, just as it would, as Carl said a minute ago, if we were putting, I mean, if they were putting basis in Mexico or Canada. So this is the unfairness, the unfairness of the U S policy, the unfairness of U S media Western media, and not telling this story to the public. So they only get one side and it’s Russia, demonization. That’s all they hear

Carl Grossman

04:47:57

Talking about nuclear weaponry. So importantly as the United nations, this goes back to 2017. The treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons was adopted. It was supposed to enter into force. Like last year, we have majority of nations on this planet supporting it. The us is not a signatory to the it’s also called the nuclear weapons ban treaty. What we’ve been doing is instead of trying to take the nuclear Janie and put it back in the bottle, like was done after world war one, when the horrific consequences of the use of chemical warfare was so in the 1920s, there was a series of treaties to prohibit, to ban chemical weapons. And it’s not been perfect, but it’s pretty much held. And this nuclear weapons ban treaty would do the same kind of thing, but put the nuclear genie back in the bottle. But what we’ve done in the United States in fact begins under Obama is to embark on a $1 trillion modernization of our nuclear arsenal to make, make even more powerful nuclear weaponry.

Carl Grossman

04:49:19

This has continued. I mean, Trump said we have nuclear weapons. Why don’t, why don’t we use them? And this drive to move towards nuclear conflict. I’m suicidal unwinnable, the bulletin of the atomic scientists in 2020, put the doomsday clock and the doomsday clock signifies. This is what the nuclear scientists are saying. Nuclear annihilation, nuclear annihilation. The doomsday clock was set up in 1947 by the bullet to move it in 2020, a hundred seconds to midnight to nuclear annihilation. The closest has been the closest it’s been since 1947. Last year, it was capped at a hundred seconds to midnight this year, just a couple of weeks ago. Again, kept a hundred seconds to midnight. I mean, Ukraine or a conflict with China over Taiwan, as long as there’s this thinking that nuclear war is susceptible and nuclear war is somehow winnable our children and their children and their children, what they face is so threatening.

Carl Grossman

05:50:33

What we have to do here, I think as to our country and countries, also the world fully adopt the nuclear weapons ban treaty, and abolish abolish nuclear weapons, and then secondarily abolish eliminate and nuclear power because in fact, nuclear power provides the material, the, the plutonium for nuclear weapons, the UN has various zones around the world. Nuclear free zones, no nuclear weapons. I feel that’s the entire planet must be a nuclear free zone, no nuclear weapons, no nuclear power. And back to the Ukraine. It’s a case study of the folly in the real world of using nuclear power.

Libbe HaLevy

05:51:24

Bruce, do you have a brief closer that you want to put on this?

Bruce Gagnin

05:51:30

Well, let, yeah, let me say this. I’m looking at an article now that just came up today, talking about how Biden Zelinsky, the president of Ukraine are fighting with each other, and they’re supposed to be allies in this. Remember that, oh, let me read to you the white house and its democratic allies have just about had it with president Zelensky according to three sources in the administration and on the hill, the Ukrainian president is by turns annoying infuriating and downright counterproductive. Zelenskyi says the white house is making the Russian invasion as burning as possible. In my opinion, he says, this is a mistake. So Zelenskyi is accusing Biden of hype in this war. Zelensky the president of Ukraine has said, Russia is not going to invade. Okay. So he’s accusing the United States of hyping it for whatever reasons and Biden is becoming frustrated that he’s saying that, you know, he’s sort of blowing the cover. So this whole thing is a mess in a million ways. And the last thing we in the United States should be supporting is a war in any way against Russia. That’s total insanity.

Libbe HaLevy

05:52:45

I want to thank both of you for certainly an unexpected set of terms that this conversation took and for the insight and the different perspective, because that’s what we like to provide here for now. Carl Grossman, Bruce Gagnin. Thank you so much for taking the time to be my guest this week on nuclear hot seat.

Bruce Gagnin

05:53:07

Thank you very much for having me on

Libbe HaLevy

05:53:10

That was award-winning environmental investigative journalist, Carl Grossman and Bruce Gagnin co-founder and coordinator of the global network against weapons and nuclear power in space. Lots of links for this week’s episode two, the book that Carl referenced nuclear power plants as weapons for the enemy and unrecognized military peril studies in international and strategic affairs by Bennett Rambert we’ll have a link to Carl’s 2016 article encounter punch nuclear power plants, pre deployed WMDs and to Bruce’s blog organizing notes, which is on the global networks webpage space for peace.org. And that’s the number four space for peace.org. And we’ll link to an article by Linda Pence Gunter of beyond nuclear on Ukraine, nuclear war, without bombs. All of these will be up on our website, nuclear hot seat.com under this episode, number 5 54

Announcer

05:54:16

Activists,

Libbe HaLevy

05:54:24

The award-winning documentary film atomic coverup by director, Greg Mitchell is available for a free viewing through February 15th as part of the bear more film center festival in Fort Lee, New Jersey, the widely acclaimed film explores how the U S suppressed the most important footage shot in Hiroshima and Nagasaki for decades, we will have a link to it up on the website, nuclear hot seat.com under this episode, number 5 54 at atomic cover-up. We’ll also be one of the films at the 11th international uranium film festival of Rio de Janeiro. That festival is scheduled for may 19 to 29, 20 22. And I have been honored to be asked to be one of the judges for this year’s festival. It’s a 10 day in gathering of filmmakers, nuclear experts, activists, journalists, and film enthusiasts from all over the world. They have invited me to come down for this of course, and I would love to, but that would involve a fundraising effort through Kickstarter, and I’m not familiar with the platform.

Libbe HaLevy

05:55:29

So if there’s somebody out there who would like to help me get a Kickstarter up to see if I can get to reel and claim all of those amazing interviews, such as I did at the international uranium film festival, when it was held in window, rock, New Mexico, and also in Quebec many years ago, this would be a chance to do so. If you’re interested in helping send an email to info@nuclearhotseat.com and I’ll get right back to you. This has been nuclear hot seat for Tuesday, February 1st, 2022 material for this week’s show has been researched and compiled from nuclear-news.net to own renard.wordpress.com beyond nuclear.org, nears.org, the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons, or I can w.org npr.org, uranium film festival.org, nuclear active.org Provincetown, independent.org. The verge.com power mag.com. asahi.com, C R I L a N dot F R M D P i.com. Dr. Helen Caldicott I F L science.com and the ever captured and compromised by the industry.

Libbe HaLevy

05:56:44

They’re supposed to be regulating nuclear regulatory commission. If you’d like to make certain you don’t miss a single episode of nuclear hot seat, you can get it delivered via email every week. As soon as it posts, just sign up, go to nuclear hot seat.com. Look for the yellow box and sign up for a weekly email link to the latest show with a brief summary of some of the information that’s inside. Now, if you’ve got a story lead, a hot tip or a suggestion of someone to interview, send an email to info@nuclearhotseat.com. And if you appreciate weekly verifiable news updates about nuclear issues around the world, take a moment to go to nuclear, hot seat.com and look for that big red button, click on it, follow the prompt and know that anything you can do will help. And we will really appreciate your support. This episode of nuclear hot seat is copyright 2022 Leiby Halevi and hardest street communications, all rights reserved, but fair use allowed.

Libbe HaLevy

05:57:48

As long as proper attribution is provided. This is Leiby Halevi of hardest street communications. The heart of the art of communicating, reminding you that as Dr. Helen, Caldicott the mother of us all rights from Australia had there been atomic reactors in Europe during world war two, the continent would have been uninhabitable thereafter. Something to think about the next time your uncle doofus goes off on how nukes are the so-called solution to climate change. So there you go. You have just had your nuclear wake-up call. So now don’t go back to sleep because we are all in the nuclear hot seat,

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05:58:30

Clear hot seat. What are those people thinking? Nuclear hot seat. What have those boys been braking clear? Hotsy the Ms. Sinking our time to act is shrinking, but nuclear hot Hotsy it’s the bomb.